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Episode 18: Onboarding and prioritising time in a 2000-person eng org with Thiago Ghisi

    Guest Biography

    Thiago Ghisi is an engineering leader who has worked at places like Apple, ThoughtWorks and Amex. He is currently a Director of Engineering at Nubank and also runs a podcast, “Engineering Advice You Didn’t Ask For”

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    Links and mentions


    Patrick Kua: So I’m very excited to have today, Thiago Ghisi. Thiago is an engineering leader who has worked at places like Apple, ThoughtWorks and Amex. He is currently a Director of Engineering at Nubank and also runs a podcast called, “Engineering Advice You Didn’t Ask For.” Hi Thiago, how are you doing?

    Thiago Ghisi: Hello Patrick. Doing amazing. Thank you so much for the invite. It’s a pleasure to be here.

    Patrick Kua: Wonderful. I find it interesting that you also run your podcast. So maybe just a quick, why did you end up doing that podcast on that topic?

    Thiago Ghisi: Yes, so it’s quite a story there actually. So last year I was on a mini sabbatical and I joined this community called is Small Bets. It is a community of people that are trying to do entrepreneurship online. With a philosophy of trying out a lot of small things and then we found out a group of former managers and engineers there and we had this idea, OK, why don’t we try this as a small bet and see how it goes. And then we try to monetise at some point. We ended up doing a season last year. 10 episodes. We did a season this year as well. This year is actually a premium on substack. So but I think that the reason was basically there seems that not a lot of people are talking about this openly. Like about management. And this seems that we have a lot of experience. So it’s not only myself. It’s myself and other four leaders. Some more on the IC (individual contributor) track. Some more on the management track.

    Thiago Ghisi: And it’s been fun for us to connect as well. So those are more conversational. Debating on a topic and you usually get to really honest opinions that are often not shared. I mean at any other place we have seen. Just because some of us actually move to different companies or actually changed tracks after being a Director+ for a couple of years so that gives us some, I would say, transparency, that you cannot actually have or see what the company or if you’re still attached to your current experience.

    Patrick Kua: Fantastic! It’s such a great idea and I completely agree with you, which is that transparency of people who are in those roles. You don’t really sometimes know what’s going on in their world and there’s not really a lot of podcasts that are talking about engineering management, leadership in our field, given the number of people I’m sure in those roles. So I think there are always places for more voices and that’s why I invited you to the podcast. I’d like to hear about your own story. So how did you start getting into leadership? You were a developer at some point. So what made you go down the management track?

    Thiago Ghisi: I think on my side I was more doing, let’s say pretty much, the management job but I was you senior engineer right? My day to day was… I feel that like… back, ten years ago engineering management was not a thing. Even staff engineering was not defined right? So we had tech leads, whatever. But I think engineering management as a career got formalised. It’s getting more clear. The responsibilities. The career ladder. How you move. I think over the last couple of years, right? But on my side, if I go back a little bit, I was at ThoughtWorks. At ThoughtWorks I was able to see a lot of good consultants working with clients and doing things, that for me, it just became normal. Like facilitating a discussion or a retrospective. Or running a discovery or a lean inception right?

    Thiago Ghisi: I got inspired by that and then I joined a startup. That was the time I moved to New York. 2014. Then I just kept doing that at that startup. We only had engineers and the CTO. There was no managers. So I was interviewing people. I was trying to put some processes to prioritise bugs. To do things that we used to do at ThoughtWorks with our, let’s say, clients at the time. Then I became the person that the team would like, “Hey, can you come here for us to discuss this? It’s getting really contentious. Can you try to facilitate?” So I was playing that role and I actually got invited at that startup to be the director of engineering. That was the first manager. But I was almost 3 years there. Was burning out. And I decided to move and that’s when I actually joined American Express. Then there, two months in, my manager, my engineering manager, that was already the title, left. I joined the company and started doing exactly the same things that I used to do at ThoughtWorks and then I did at Voxy, that was the startup. Then two months in my manager left and I was in a good position and people already seeing why is this engineer doing those things. It’s weird here, right? Because in a big corporation, it was, if you are an engineer, you sit on the backseat. You’re not the one running a meeting with all the directors and giving your opinions. I was doing that because that was just normal for me. Then my manager left and I was offered the the opportunity to start to lead a pretty big squad at the time on a really big project.

    Patrick Kua: How big was that squad?

    Thiago Ghisi: It was 12 people.

    Patrick Kua: Oh yeah, it’s quite big.

    Thiago Ghisi: It was a mix of iOS, Android, and backend and it was on a death march, I would say, to deliver a big project. But that was fun and I got some really good manager support. That was the end of 2016. In 2017 I started my journey and that was really stressful. Especially because I had never managed people directly. So it’s one thing when you are, let’s say, the consultant, when you are the one facilitating meetings here and there. Partnering up with the product managers right? The other thing is when people start to report to you and start doing one on ones. Start doing feedback. Promotions. I think that was a great learning and I think the the pressure to deliver at the same time was also great to almost hone some other skills on how to break down projects, how to manage dependencies. When you work on a big corporation a big part of this management is to work across business areas, business units, and get the end to end to work.

    Patrick Kua: Yeah. And that is a lot of dependencies I can imagine. A lot of navigating an organisation. What I find fascinating with your story is, as both a consultant and then also in your startup, of you improving things about how the team’s working, as you said aren’t necessarily things that perhaps engineers normally focus on. When you find yourself in that more formal role it sounds like you had those activities or experiences underneath your belt. Then it was just the people management side which is perhaps the newer aspects and to a certain degree, that’s a much better place than a lot of other first time managers who are learning everything at the same time. I heard you say you had some good support, so what were some concrete things that helped you through that journey?

    Thiago Ghisi: Yeah. So I think as you said, I think, since the beginning of my career I was super into process, right? So Kanban, and even looking at the more traditional models, improving the efficiency of the flow and looking deeper than most engineers look at agile methodologies and all that. But regarding the support, so I think it is great when you, it was great that I joined as an engineer and then quickly transitioned to management. And that transition was not official. Let’s say at the beginning. It was like, okay, you’re going to join. You’re going to start to act as a manager but we need to fix the promotion process. Whatever it is and technically there was still an overlap of time where some of the engineers were reporting to the director at the time but I feel that I had my director at the time had my back. I felt that he was there and he was so confident that I would be able to get things done and move through the challenge. I think having that safety net with you was super helpful even though I think there were stressful times.

    Thiago Ghisi: There were things that were new to me and were new to him as well. I think more of the sense of support and I think the other thing was that this manager of mine at the time he had a lot of context. He was at the company for 10+ years and he had been growing at a really fast pace. Also he knew how to navigate into the org. How to get things done. A context that I had never worked in before in a really big corporation where you have a lot of dependencies. Where in order to do something on the mobile app, was our context there, you had to involve sometimes the mainframe, security, networking, right? It was something that he was super fluent to navigate (in) and I could rely a lot on him on things that I was missing. He would join standups here and there. He would give feedback and pick up things for him to do, so it was great to learn by example because I was also new in the organisation. I had never done a project of that magnitude in that organisation before and not even in my career before. Because I mean as a consultant you work on big things, but you’re smaller, or you just get a chunk of an initiative. I think we’re also aligned on the philosophy of management. I remember that one thing he said to me at the beginning was, I look at managers as servant leaders. That you are there to empower the people and serve the team. I think that was a really good framing. It was just a good moment and good support.

    Patrick Kua: That’s fantastic. I’m so happy that you were able to have a good first experience in an official management role. Where you had somebody who had your back. Who was role modelling and who complimented a lot of the things that you were trying to learn and grow in that area. So I think that’s fantastic. Let’s fast forward a little bit and going through that experience of being a first time manager. At what point did you start to manage other managers?

    Thiago Ghisi: That was probably almost 3 years after. It was mid-2019. It was great that I had that time. It was not something that I picked up right away because I felt that during that time being a first-level manager and getting those big projects done and getting some process changes and getting to know other managers. Getting to also know the senior leadership. Getting to know the VP. Having a chance to work on improving our career ladder. Our promotion process. Taking a few engineers to promotions and seeing some big, let’s say, be able to contribute more at the org level, a manager was essential for me to be able to then onboard new managers under me.

    Thiago Ghisi: Yeah, that was 3 years after. I have been managing other managers since then but I actually had a moment when I Amex and joined Apple that I went back to be a line manager. To be a direct manager, I actually found, weirdly enough, that it was much harder than before. I felt that I was not that ready to be a direct manager. Then when I left Apple and joined Nubank I joined again to be a manager of managers and I feel that are more effective. I feel that my skills are better used as a manager of managers with a slightly bigger scope than being the line manager than trying to do things that I used to do as a director. So I think that’s something that’s funny. You would think that the more you grow, the easier it is to move backwards. I have seen how things work. I have had bigger orgs now. Now we’re going to go to manage a direct team of engineers on a new project. That should be a piece of cake. But it was not the case at all. I actually found that I was struggling. The other side is I think joining as direct manager directly, not as an IC was my first time so I had to learn the codebase, the infrastructure side, the process. I didn’t have that onboarding experience of an engineer that when I joined Amex, I think that helped me a lot to be at the same page. When you join as a manager you usually are put to task right away. And you have to learn the technical side on the side. But that takes a while and the bigger the context, the bigger the org, that is a big learning curve.

    Patrick Kua: Yeah, great experience and also a great reflection on those differences. What’s a concrete example of something that you think is different for managing managers and managing individual contributors?

    Thiago Ghisi: So I feel that one thing that’s big is you are on the day to day, helping to break down tasks and running standups and removing blockers. Giving feedback I think that doesn’t change. But I think as a manager of managers I think you’re not as involved on those things and you’re focusing more on a little bit broader issues because your scope is bigger, you have managers you can delegate things to. As a line manager you have to do everything. You don’t have many people to delegate to. Especially if you have a team that’s not that big. Also the other thing is if you don’t have a good PM (Product Manager) partner, things are much harder as a direct manager. Also it depends on how much are you expected to code or to contribute as a line manager. As a tech lead manager, TLM. You’re expected to be a lot closer to the day to day than as a manager of managers. Not that you are not expected. But you’re looking more at how things are going to integrate. Head count issues. Hiring. You look at things that, as a line manager, you’re not getting a big portion of your time.

    Thiago Ghisi: I think you also start to develop more relationships across. Because those are going to be key for you to deliver those projects. To get to know your peers. Your partners in other areas. You get slightly big blockers and you try to, let’s say, sell things to the senior leadership to get whatever new tooling, new things. You’re thinking a little bit more ahead of time. You’re planning for next year. You’re looking for things that are bit more long term. You still do a lot of people management but you’re more, to some engineers, more as a mentor. More as someone that’s giving additional insights. Not someone that is managing the day to day.

    Patrick Kua: I guess what I’m hearing here, is that your experience, particularly as a manager of a direct team is directly affected by the composition and context of that team. If you’re having to code. If you’re dealing with a relatively junior or small team. Lots of things and you also have to have a proper product planning. That’s a lot of things for a single person to do. When you step back as a director then you have more of a bench that you can lean on. In terms of experienced managers and people you can delegate and go to. Whereas your options sound a lot more limited.

    Thiago Ghisi: Yeah. The other thing I was going to say is I think it is easier to be a direct manager if you were an IC and if you had a taste of how things work. What is the dynamic right. I think it’s much harder maybe to join a new company as an engineering manager with a direct team under you than to join as a director in my experience. Because of course that might be just a sample size. But I feel you have more support. You have more people that you can leverage when you join as a director for a bigger scope. You’re not as critical to the day to day when you join as an external manager with something that you’re not as familiar with the context. You’re not familiar with the technology of the platforms. I think you have a lot of work to onboard yourself in that situation.

    Patrick Kua: Absolutely. No, great. I could definitely see that. Let’s talk a little bit about your role as a director at Nubank. So what was your onboarding process? What did that look like? It sounds like it was a positive experience and relatively easy compared to the last role.

    Thiago Ghisi: Yeah, I think the onboarding process… Before talking a little bit… What is a director role at Nubank? So directors are usually not the first level, not even the second level, or usually the third level of management. I think in terms of my responsibility, as of right now, I’m leading the mobile platform side of Nubank. But in terms of onboarding I think one thing that helped a lot in Nubank was that the person that I was going to replace, had just moved back to the IC track. He was there with me for another, almost, a year.

    Patrick Kua: Wow

    Thiago Ghisi: As a peer. So we’re both reporting to the GM (General Manager) of the business unit. We actually had worked before at ThoughtWorks 10 years before.

    Patrick Kua: All the connections, right?

    Thiago Ghisi: So that also helped a lot. So I felt there was a really strong partnership and he had a lot more context because he was a Nubank at that time for maybe 5 years. He was super effective at navigating things and had a lot of docs. A lot of process that he had already established. The challenge was more, to grow beyond a certain size that we were. We had some platform teams that were growing. It was already on a good trajectory and I was more tweaking things and solving some people issues we had. I think that the thing that helped the most, was having this person there to give context and have had previous experience working with some people. So I think that also helped a lot. I think culturally also Nubank has a much similar culture than ThoughtWorks or other companies that I worked in, so I could relate a lot with our decisions. How things were working in production. Some of the mindset that are weird to some people. So much less hierarchical I would say. A lot more autonomy. A lot more empowerment and my role was more to give feedback here and there. Review things. Start to look for things outside our org. How to impact the whole company. Strategies to think bigger. Also to get familiar with the systems and improve our processes. So I think that was pretty natural and I think I had great managers under me that were already on the role for a while. So I think that helped a lot too. I would say a combination of all that. Also the person that hired me was a VP of engineering and she was there for a while as well. It was good dotted line support. I think a combination of all that made things really easy.

    Patrick Kua: Sounds you had a nice onboarding experience and as a result you’re set up for success in your role even more. I can understand the extra benefit of having somebody or people around you who have so much history and context of knowing who to talk to, how to get things done, and also the history of typically how teams or organisations have evolved. I’m sure there’s always some interesting conversations there about why do we have this process, or why do we have this team here?

    Thiago Ghisi: Yeah exactly. I think some of the challenges were presented to me during the interview process. Some of the things that I would encounter were really clear and I didn’t have any surprises. I felt people were super transparent and I had a pretty good connection with all my peers. Pretty good onboarding all things considered.

    Patrick Kua: Excellent. So you started to talk a little bit about your organisation. Let’s delve into that a little bit more. You said, I think, directors are the third level of management. So what does your whole group look like and what are those levels that you’re talking about?

    Thiago Ghisi: I think, at Nubank, just to give a really quick perspective. So usually we have on the management track we start with tech manager, then engineering manager. Then senior engineering manager. Then director. So the director is the fourth level on the management track. Of course on the IC side we have the whole senior, lead, staff, senior staff, principal, distinguished. That will go side and side. So depending on the size of your business unit, we usually have I would say one director per business unit and depending on the size you might have more or less layers or people under you. There might be directors that are actually managing a small team or managing a small group of managers and staff engineers, senior staff also report to the director, depending on the structure.

    Thiago Ghisi: As of now, my org is… I think I mentioned a little bit…. mobile platform. That is a big org and I’m also managing the CI/CD platform. I have two scopes. The bigger one is mobile platform. Then there I have four managers. On the other, I have one manager with two managers under this person. I have a peer on the product side. We try to all have in each one of these squads or each one of the packs, have a PM and engineering manager. So I think that has helped a lot to have that co-leadership pro and also staff. I forgot to mention. So depending on the level, today I have senior staff and two other staff reporting to me. They look at different parts of the org but they have cross responsibilities to help me with the vision and how to integrate things better. How to solve eventual technical challenges we have in one area.

    Patrick Kua: So if I counted right then that sounded you have about, is it 8 direct reports?

    Thiago Ghisi: 10 now. But I think because I have some other ICs. Analytics engineers and some other lead engineers that are reporting to me temporarily. But that’s not the ideal. We’re trying to stay to 7-8 max.

    Patrick Kua: Yeah it’s a snapshot and I think that’s the interesting thing with any management role. Is that number will ebb and vary depending on what’s happening and structures and if you’re hiring or backfilling.

    Thiago Ghisi: Yes, yes.

    Patrick Kua: Lots of different things but that gives a good sentiment. I find it fascinating that you’ve got the mobile platform area and then the mobile senior manager or manager who’s managing other managers, how do you split your time across those sorts of areas? Do you have a schedule thought about how you define your time or is it a bit more ad hoc?

    Thiago Ghisi: I mean I do have a schedule. I am not budgeting for how much time here or there. But I usually have, one on ones with all the directs. Usually earlier in the week. Then I have monthly deep dive with feature one of the squads. Then staff meeting with everybody. I try to also have skip levels with a lot of the more senior engineers, even if they’re not reporting to me. I try to facilitate discussions or I try to be really involved on the day to day on the operations. So whenever there is a big outage. Whenever there’s a big crash. Whenever there is a tough week on the operation side, I’m always there. I’m trying to hear directly from the problem. What’s happening? What’s blocking us? What are the bottlenecks? I’m looking really closely to cloud costs and trying to project the budget for next year. Looking at the headcounts and where the areas we need more staffing. Where we need more tenure sometimes. Where we need to move people that are on a particular scope for a while. They’re getting bored there. So I’m more holistically trying to manage things. Whenever they’re low performers I’ve tried to be really close to support the managers because I know how hard it is to make decisions on PIPs (Performance Improvement Plans) and to let someone go if needed. So I try to be there because not all managers have had that experience. It’s usually really hard to go through that alone.

    Patrick Kua: Absolutely.

    Thiago Ghisi: Promotion wise. Whenever we have some folks that are close to the promotion I try to get close. To give more feedback. Give more direction. To be an additional point of contact and to also find opportunities that are sometimes outside the scope of a particular squad, a particular batch. And that manager sometimes doesn’t have the same view that I have because they are so focused on a particular area. That’s where I see a lot of opportunities for promotions is usually on the areas that are crossed on things that are on problems that are similar but are in other areas. Connecting people that have similar challenges for mentoring. That’s where having that a little bit broader view helps me to find those opportunities and talking directly to those people also gives me a smell of how things are on the day to day. If they’re getting the feedback. I try to be a guardrail in some of those.

    Patrick Kua: Great. It sounds like you are very busy. It sounds like I can imagine there’s lots of things going on and how those relationships really keep you up to date with what’s going on. Some of the things you talked about are also those activities that probably managers are not necessarily going to focus on. You’re thinking about the cross-pollination across teams and looking at how you encourage more of that when managers are probably focused on their teams. I understand a lot of these things are happening in your business unit. How many other business units are there or how many other peers do you have? How much time do you end up spending with other parts of the organisation?

    Thiago Ghisi: Yes. Yes. So there is another important thing that I didn’t mention. One of the core things that I have been spending a lot of time is to create that leadership team under me and having a group that is not afraid of having different opinions. That feels super safe on the meetings we have with all of them and they can actually also see the dependencies. I’m not the only one that cares about the whole. So I think that is also an area where I spend a lot of time. The other thing you mentioned is, also I have the leadership team that I’m part of. My business unit and that is also something that I need to help. Because if I don’t help there I’m not going to have opportunity to grow. Also I think that’s where I can find some opportunities to have some of my managers to start having impact. Some of the staff and senior staff they go beyond my org. Because if I only keep them busy with what I have, that’s not enough. And of course, there are areas that everybody needs help.

    Thiago Ghisi: So how many business units are there at Nubank at this point? I think we’re close to 20. So we have all the platform business units. We have the products. Then we have the markets we call it. I think that’s probably around 15-20. Each one of those usually has a general manager and then usually a director of engineering, director of product. Director of BA (business analytics) and usually also a director of design. But not necessarily all of them. Some of them only have one. Some of them have all. Depends on what kind of business unit they are.

    Patrick Kua: Yeah. That is a lot of business units. You’ve got your leadership team within your team. You’ve got the leadership team in your business unit and you’ve got all these other peer business units. How much time Do you get a chance to connect with other business units or what is the need I guess?

    Thiago Ghisi: Yes, yes, yes. I think there is a huge need because especially as I’m being a platform that is serving the other business units. I have to be close. To especially the ones that are having the most problems and proactively connecting to the directors or to the senior managers. Building relationships and getting feedback. I usually spend… I try to usually my fridays are the day that I try to connect either with my peers or across business units. I do a lot of one-on-ones either biweekly or monthly with some of those people that I have identified on this semester, on the year that are important partners. Important peers that we have a lot of synergy. And there is, of course, things that are happening on the broad engineering. So Nubank, at this point, has a little bit over 2000 engineers. So it’s a big engineering org. So we have monthly meetings with the whole engineering group that I’m part of the leadership team. So I’m sometimes presenting things. Sometimes getting feedback.

    Thiago Ghisi: The other thing is there is also the effort companywide to plan the next year. There is meetings with the senior management. The C-levels. So I’m also on those meetings. Of course, they are more informational for my level. I’m not the ones working on the big BU decisions. On the big meetings with other GMs but more second level with the C-level. But I get exposed to some of that. Whenever there is a big problem or my area has a really close relationship with the C-level. So I think that’s also something that, depending on the state of things, it might require a lot of more time. To be facilitating that senior management layer. To not let things burn or not expose someone who’s not ready on my team directly there. To review things before big presentations. To bring that external perspective. So that’s something that I try to do. What the senior management team is looking for. What they would say. Some of the dialogue. Some of the plans that are moving forward for the next three, five years. Making sure we are going on that direction. I mean doing the middle layer of those two.

    Thiago Ghisi: There is the chapter. There is the other BUs. Problems that appear that will help and the director is of course the first layer. Someone’s going to get pinged directly either by a C-level. Either by the GM or either by the peers. We usually starts with you because you’re the external facing of that group. Unless people already know how the group is broken down and they had experience working with some of my managers. Some of my staff engineers. They might go directly to them. But otherwise I’m the router in so many scenarios.

    Patrick Kua: It makes sense that you’re the first point of contact.

    Thiago Ghisi: Yeah. Yeah.

    Patrick Kua: You’re the big central face of the organisation from the tech side. It makes sense unless people are familiar with what’s going on in the back of your organisation. That’s a really fascinating snapshot of some of the activities. The cadences and how you synchronise. Build that context and also contribute and shape some of that context as well. I really appreciate you sharing some of those details. Let’s step back a little bit and talk about your experience in leadership/management. So what’s a book for you that has really affected your leadership or management style that you would recommend for managers of managers?

    Thiago Ghisi: That’s awesome. My usual go to book for.. let’s say line managers is, The Effective Manager. I think that has, I would say, the basic framework and that helped me a lot when I started. But for managers of managers that one book that was super influential to me at the time. It was. What was the name of the book now? Trying to remember. Just flipped my mind now.

    Patrick Kua: Can you remember the theme or the topic?

    Thiago Ghisi: Yeah, yeah. It’s in the context of submarines. What is the name of the guy?

    Patrick Kua: David Marquet?

    Thiago Ghisi: David Marquet. The first book. Not the second.

    Patrick Kua: Turn the ship around?

    Thiago Ghisi:

    Turn the ship around. That was super inspirational. Mostly on developing the culture. I love all the examples and the change of mindsets that they had to go through. But I’m pretty sure there are a bunch more. But I think that one comes to mind as being one that was really inspiring. There are other more tactical, I would say.

    Patrick Kua: Great. Yeah. No, I mean there’re so many fantastic books out there. It’s interesting to see what has been impactful for you as well. If you were working with somebody who’s about to transition from being a manager of a team to managing other managers, what piece of advice would you give them?

    Thiago Ghisi: I feel that the first thing is this idea of creating a culture of… one thing that was hard for me when I started to manage other managers was that I only had two managers under me initially. That was not enough to have good exchanges. To actually create a group that was seeing things more holistically. Then as my org started to grow one really important thing was the staff meetings. How to organise your staff meetings to be super effective.

    Thiago Ghisi: How do you appreciate the things that you want to see more? Not only that’s visible, not only to the managers or direct reports. But also visible through the whole org. That might also involve some all hands meetings. Some big slack channels with everyone that’s under your org. That sense of, okay, I’m on this squad but I’m also part of this big organisation. Those are also my coworkers. Because I feel that at the beginning for me, it was almost as if I was an additional member of 2-3 squads. I was cross-pollinating and trying to complement and more working cross. Less had, say, a shared mission and a shared culture that folks were seeing. That took a while to get those to develop that leadership gene is really tricky. How you start to combine people that are operating completely different ways or people that are just new to the company that bring some external perspective. People that have been at the company for years. How do you make it a little smoother? Those conflicts that are normal to appear. How you leverage different strengths of different people under your org.

    Thiago Ghisi: Give that visibility that is okay to work cross. You don’t need to be 100% on that scope. But also doesn’t create harm by asking people to work on cross problems. I think that balance is really hard. Because if you are often talking to the engineers directly and giving them problems, you often hurt their own squad because now they’re not working on that roadmap. They’re not 100 % focused there. But at the same time they don’t grow if they only keep in that scope. Yes. I would say that. The leadership team and the culture is something that’s really hard. I think it takes a while. I feel that after almost five years I’m finally to a point where I say, okay, now I can see how effective I’m being. I’m proud of the things I’m doing. But at the beginning because I had a smaller org and that’s usually how you start, it’s much harder. How to keep that sense of org and how to be the one that’s in multiple contexts without being invasive or without being the one that’s just saying things top down.

    Patrick Kua: I can recognise all of these and that’s some fantastic advice and tips for new people who are going to find themselves in these roles as well. My final question for you is, if people were to look out for more information about you, or to reach out to contact you, what would be the best ways?

    Thiago Ghisi: So I’m pretty active on both Linkedin and Twitter. My handle is usually Thiagoghisi everywhere. So you’re going to find me there. Yeah. I would say either Twitter or Linkedin are the best ways.

    Patrick Kua: Wonderful. Excellent and we’ll make sure that all those links are in the show notes with links to all of the books and resources that were mentioned throughout as well. So thank you very much for spending your time and sharing your experiences across your journey. It’s a fantastic journey that you’ve had so far and I’m also really looking forward to see where your career takes you. You’ve still got many years ahead of you and I’m very excited to see where you’re going and thank you once again for being on the podcast.

    Thiago Ghisi: Thank you, Patrick. It was a pleasure.

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